“Time is the school in which we learn. Time is the fire in which we burn.” – Delmore Schwartz
I can’t begin to tell you how excited I was a couple of weeks ago when Paula Pant announced that she was going to interview Suze Orman on her Afford Anything podcast. I mean, Suze Orman is the Big Time. I was so ecstatic that this legendary, mainstream financial guru was going to cross lanes and talk to Paula that I bookmarked the event so I wouldn’t miss it.
Then, I took a listen. And it made me question everything…
My 19-Year-Old Self Found Suze Orman
Why was I so ecstatic? Because Suze Orman was one of the first influencers I can remember picking up on when I was starting to learn about money. Since I grew up poor, I didn’t have financial resources or education at home, so I had to look elsewhere.
Enter Suze Orman. I found her while wondering around in Borders bookstore when I was about 19 years old. For some reason, this woman resonated with me and I chose to buy her book over the plethora of others that sat on the shelves that evening.
Maybe it’s because she was a woman in a sea of men and I saw her as someone I could relate to. Maybe my subconscious viewed her as a maternal figure that could guide me through the process of understanding money. Who knows.
Whatever the reason, I wasted no time in purchasing The 9 Steps to Financial Freedom as an audiobook on CD. I can remember listening to that series of CDs over and over and over again until the message became ingrained in my brain. Money was important. I needed to make it, save it, and protect it. Period.
And so it went, a few years later I purchased The Courage to be Rich as an audiobook on CD and listened to that relentlessly. I was young, but I was serious about changing the course of my life and not living in poverty as an adult the way I did as a child. Suze Orman was a guiding force in my financial development. And for that, I will forever be grateful.
With all that said, I certainly hope you can understand my excitement for this particular podcast episode.
The Insulated FIRE Community
I found the FIRE community over 3 years ago, nearly 2 decades after discovering Suze Orman. And let me tell you, a lot happened in my life over the course of those interim decades. I was married. I got divorced. I became a single mother. I supported my parents. And on and on and on.
Finding the FIRE community in 2015 was a breath of fresh air that I absolutely needed in my life. Despite the financial lessons I learned early on from those CDs I bought at Borders, life had gotten in my way. The unexpected happened. And I was no longer 19 years old.
When I found FIRE I was in my later 30s, had a good job, and was on the precipice of planning my second marriage to a wonderful man. At this point in my life, I was determined to get it right. FIRE seemed to fall right in line with that. Not only did I want to get my relationship right, but I knew it was also time to get my money right.
Millennials seemed to make up the majority of the FIRE movement. I loved their ideas and viewpoints. I also loved their flexible mindset and embraced the concept of ditching the cubicle for early retirement. And even though I was a few years too old to be a millennial, I hopped aboard that train.
FIRE Blogs Take Off
One of the first blogs I found in the FIRE space was Frugalwoods. I absolutely loved their view of FIRE and made sure to devour all related blog posts and podcasts. Reading blog posts before getting out of bed and listening to podcasts on my morning walks became routine.
I was immediately taken with the concept of stockpiling as much cash as possible to chart a more meaningful life, despite being about 10 years older than the majority of the people in the community.
The more I read the more I loved it. I even decided to start a blog of my own to chart my family’s journey toward FIRE.
But then I noticed that the majority of the people preaching FIRE were not retired or planning to retire at all. They were simply planning on escaping their corporate jobs with the horrible fluorescent lights in exchange for an entrepreneurial path. Then, I realized that blogging, for the most part, isn’t about just telling stories. It’s about traffic, email lists, and sales funnels. It’s about selling the dream so you can sell a product.
Please Stop Saying You’re Retired
Please, for the love of all things, please stop saying you’re retired. Yes, I understand the FIRE movement. I’m a part of it.
I know that someone who retires early doesn’t necessarily retire in the traditional sense of the word. They just retire in the sense that they no longer need to work for money (should they choose not to) and they have the flexibility to pursue other work that sparks their passions. They retire To something not FROM something.
Trust me, I get it.
But the overarching message to followers of the movement and to outsiders (Suze Orman included) is to invest 25 times your annual expenses so that you can safely withdrawal 3 – 4% of that money annually so you can live happily ever after.
My biggest problem with promoting FIRE (and I have also promoted it in the past) is that most people who “FIRE” aren’t retired at all. They’re making money from their blogs, podcasts, YouTube channels, etc. They’re making money selling products, they’re being sponsored by brands, and they’re earning ad revenue.
I’m not saying it’s NOT okay to get paid for your work, or team up with a brand, or sell a product you believe in. I certainly do it. I’m just saying that you can’t blame anyone for not knowing that retire early doesn’t really mean retire early.
After the initial elation I felt over FIRE subsided, I decided that I, personally, wasn’t truly onboard with the concept. So I dubbed my own personal journey as FIOR – Financial Independence/Optional Retirement.
I don’t hate my W-2 job and have written about this fact many times. In fact, I am extremely appreciative of what my job affords me and my family. I have publicly stated that I’m a proponent of fatFIRE and building legacy wealth. My concerns with retiring early with only (yes, I said only) 25x my annual expenses invested are many.
Maybe it all just comes down to semantics. I know FIRE is catchy and it’s easy to romanticize, but If we just drop the “RE” and focus on “FI,” we’ll have a lot fewer haters ganging up on us.
The Suze Smackdown
After realizing the FIRE movement is a bit misleading and isn’t really about retiring early but more about switching careers, I started to think differently about my current cubicle situation and have questioned the notion of the grass being greener on the other side.
Don’t forget, even though I hopped aboard the millennial FIRE train, I’m a true Gen-Xer at heart. Life is tough. You can only depend on yourself. And not everybody gets a trophy. I know it’s not popular, but that’s the way I think.
So to hear Suze Orman lay it all on the table spoke directly to me. Hearing her reiterate the fact that the world isn’t all sunshine and puppy dogs and exclaim that THINGS CAN AND DO GO WRONG was, again, refreshing.
Don’t Shoot The Messenger
I imagine Suze Orman, with all of her years of experience and elevated status, is a tough interviewee any day of the week.
That said, just because you didn’t like what you were being told or the way in which it was delivered, doesn’t mean her message is not worth hearing.
Stuff IS Going To Go Wrong
I’m nowhere near Suze Orman’s age but I’m also nowhere near my 20s anymore either. I’m stuck in the middle and I have lived through some of these unexpected life events Suze referred to in her interview.
What Has Gone Wrong In My Life Already
Having recently crossed over the line of my 4th decade, I have a few more years under my belt than a lot of other FIRE enthusiasts. And having a few more years under my belt means I have also encountered a few more unanticipated events. And here they are in chronological order.
I Started Over In My Early 30s:
By the time my early 30s rolled around, I had divorced and had to start over, emotionally and financially. When that happened, I was forced to stop all savings and retirement contributions. Not only did I have to stop saving altogether, but I also had to use a big chunk of my savings to reboot my life. I was starting from ground zero and needed to buy everything all over again, right down to utensils and bedding.
Divorces and reboots happen all the time. Just look at the statistics. And if you’re considering FIRE with your spouse at 25 or 30 years old, it’s quite possible you might experience something similar.
My Dad Died:
My dad lived to be 90 years old, but since he had me when he was much older in his life, I was on the younger side when I had to say goodbye to him.
Fortunately, he didn’t have a long, drawn-out illness. But he still needed to enter a nursing home for the last few months of his life.
Since my parents never had high-paying jobs, they didn’t have any savings. That meant my dad had to enter a horribly depressing facility that made me cringe every time I walked through the doors. My dad had no choice.
Yes, Suze might be over the top in suggesting you need to subsidize your parents’ end-of-life care to the tune of $30k/month, but I certainly wish I would’ve had more money to help in his time of need.
I Was A Single Mother:
Rebooting my life and dealing with my dad’s death were two things I was dealing with as I was also trying to navigate the world as a single mother. This is another situation I never anticipated. But alas, it happened.
My Mama Came A Callin’:
Just like Suze said, my mama came a callin’. There was quite an age gap between my parents and my mother is still alive and doing relatively well. But, she doesn’t have any money other than the Social Security she receives from my father.
And since everyone knows that living on Social Security alone is almost a financial impossibility, she often needs help. We help by paying for her mobile phone, car repairs, and any health-related needs that aren’t covered through Medicare.
Case in point, she needed $2k worth of dental work last year. Her dental condition was potentially life-threatening and needed to be addressed. Our only option was to pay for it.
In my opinion, it’s things like these that crop up throughout our lives that we don’t anticipate. I mean, I always knew my parents didn’t have a nest egg, but in my 20s, their situation becoming my problem wasn’t on my radar at all.
My Daughter Was Nearly Killed By An Irresponsible Driver:
Last summer, my daughter was nearly killed by an irresponsible driver in a suburban neighborhood. My daughter and her father were out riding their bikes when a teenager tore out of a driveway behind them and started barreling through the neighborhood. Her father heard the squeal of the tires and told her to get over as far as she could but before she could react the car was upon them. The driver of the car slammed on the brakes to avoid her father, but the car started fish-tailing directly toward her.
Thankfully, she was frozen with fear and didn’t move. At the last second, the teenage driver gained control of the vehicle and reacted quickly by driving up onto someone’s front lawn and around a tree before slamming back down onto the road and peeling out of the neighborhood.
She was literally inches away from being killed and it’s something I can’t stand to even think about, let alone write about, but here it is anyway, because bad things happen, whether you’re prepared for them or not.
All the calculated risk assessments in the world wouldn’t have prepared for me for the devastation that would’ve caused in my life.
I Have Cataracts
I begrudgingly started to wear glasses a few years ago. Along with that, goes annual eye exams and new prescriptions as needed. Last spring when I went in for my routine eye exam, my doctor told me that I have cataracts forming in both eyes. What?! I’m too young for that. Turns out, that’s not true.
He followed it up with the fact that they’re so tiny that he hesitated to even mention it, but as a doctor, he believed I had the right to know. Before I shuffled out the door he reassured me that I don’t have anything to worry about and that I probably won’t even need to address them for 20 or 30 years. Phew. Okay, that did make me feel better.
But, guess what. I’m still going to have to deal with it. In case you’re wondering, I checked the numbers and, currently, cataract surgery not covered under any health/vision plan costs roughly $3500 out-of-pocket, per eye. Multiply that by 2 and that’s no small sum.
My Major Concern Is Health Insurance
On the heels of my daughter’s nearly catastrophic accident and my unexpected cataracts, health insurance deserves its own subheading.
Growing up, my mother constantly drilled into my head the importance of having good health insurance. As a result, I have ALWAYS had good health insurance.
My entire adult career has been spent working for various global corporations that have provided me with excellent pay, medical coverage, and retirement savings plans.
After my husband and I committed to frugality and saving massive amounts of our income a few years ago, we decided that FIRE was the right course for me. My husband was and still is working his passion and has no plans to retire, ever. I, on the other hand, enjoy my job but could definitely enjoy a different job just as much, if not a lot more.
So, we decided we would save to reach our FIRE number (which would’ve been well below the Suze Orman recommended a minimum of $5M, by the way) at which time, I would quit my corporate job to pursue something I was more passionate about.
But the more I thought about this becoming a reality, I started to pull back.
The closer we got to our number, the more concerns I started to have about giving up my health insurance coverage. After all, I was carrying the family’s benefits. And this was the benefit I was most afraid to walk away from. Yes, I was and am afraid. Fear is not always a bad thing. It can be good in some situations and can actually stop us from making poor decisions.
So, I did what any responsible wife and mother would do, I turned to the internet and began researching health insurance plans via the ACA and private policies. I even reached out to the FIRE community to see what everyone else was doing.
What I discovered floored me. Family premiums can be staggering. The lowest quote I received for our family of 3 was $1500/month. Granted, I was looking at lower deductible plans, but still.
Keep in mind, my husband has no plans to stop working and bringing in an income. Unfortunately, though, his work is project-based and doesn’t offer benefits. That means we’re stuck paying premiums based on his income, unlike other early retirees who are drawing down on investments and showing smaller incomes for tax purposes.
This year, I will celebrate my 12th year at my job on the Monday following Thanksgiving and something I have yet to mention is a benefit my corporate job with the fluorescent lights offers me.
If I continue to be an employee for another 10 years, I will receive my unbelievably good health insurance for myself and all of my dependents FOR THE REST OF OUR LIVES at the same rate I’m paying as a current employee.
Ten years from now, I will still be far from traditional retirement age and qualifying for Medicare. In my opinion, it would be pretty selfish and irresponsible of me to yank that benefit out from under my family’s feet just because I’m not working my ideal job.
Related content:
- F.I.O.R. – Financial Independence Optional Retirement
- How We’re Achieving FIRE/FIOR Through Selective Frugality
- I’m Not Working My Ideal Job. And I’m Okay With That.
- Everything You Need To Know About Credit Card Debt Consolidation
- Why I Love My W-2 Job And You Should Love Yours Too
Don’t Get Burned
So, what does it all mean? For me, after listening to Suze’s interview with Paula, I will be hard-pressed to pull the trigger on FIRE before qualifying for lifelong health insurance through my current employer, despite us hitting our FI number beforehand.
Yes, you can engage in risk assessment and management and whole-heartedly believe you have everything accounted for, but there will undoubtedly be things that crop up that never even crossed your mind.
And, yes, you can maintain a healthy lifestyle in an effort to avoid exorbitant medical bills. And you can sign up for health share plans for medical coverage because you’re young and healthy, but just be aware that your genetics might have other plans.
It’s smart for proponents of FIRE to maintain flexibility in thinking that they can always go back to work. But that might not always be as easy as it sounds. The situations that would force early retirees back into the workforce are also situations that will likely make finding work more difficult, like a market downturn or health issues.
In no way am I saying you should pull the plug on your FIRE dreams, but I am saying that it’s imperative for you to consider all aspects of what could be waiting for you decades down the road. Sure, Suze Orman’s words were harsh, but that doesn’t mean she was completely wrong.
If after examining your financial plan you decide you have all the bases covered, go for it. However, you might also decide that a nest egg of up to $5M isn’t that far out in left field for your particular situation. In which case, you might realize that those dimly lit fluorescent lights above your high-paying cubicle aren’t as depressing as everyone on the internet wants you to think they are.
31 Comments
I listened to the interview before I realized what a splash it was making in this little old corner of the internet. And while Suze may have been hyperbolic, I agree that she makes excellent points. I love the optimism of FIRE, but I think there are definitely blind spots. I don’t hear a lot of realistic conversations about disability, chronic illness, death, divorce, children with handicaps that will never be able to live independently, aging parents, and any of the other things that happen with astonishing regularity.
Bottom line: life gets expensive sometimes and you need to plan for the worst. Dropping out of the workforce for just a couple years then having to shoulder your way back in could be harder than some would like to think.
Thank you for sharing your opinion. I obviously completely agree with your thoughts. I absolutely LOVE the idea of FIRE, but, unfortunately, I think it’s makes for a better idea than a reality.
Great post Lisa. You nailed it. The Paula Pant interview did cause one to question lots of the common tenants of the FI/RE movement (me included), but that’s absolutely a good thing – gives cause for us all to reflect on exactly what makes sense for our own circumstances.
Ironically much of what Suze said is not incompatible with many values espoused in FI/RE, such as engage in work that you enjoy or are passionate about and keep on doing it. Seems to me that many people who are workmen towards or at FI are doing exactly that.
Exactly! The interview made me question everything…as I stated in the opening paragraph of my post. Again, I love the idea of financial independence and people pursuing more meaningful work, but I’m not sure the term “retire early” should be thrown around with suck recklessness.
Haven’t heard the interview but the things you were saying are spot on. I got interested in fire because of concerns that I might be forced to stop working before traditional retirement age. I have seen ageism be a factor for my dad as well as others. The reality is it is harder to find jobs for 50+. I also have a chronic condition that might force me to work part time or stop working. So originally the appeal was that 25x income would provide a safety net if these risks happened. This is why I get so frustrated that many in FIRE community aren’t really living that way and get upset when others question that. Not trying to be the retirement police, I want to know specificals on where income is coming from to understand whether strategy would work if I don’t become an entrepreneur. Health share would never work for my chronic condition I need health insurance and it is expense. Health costs add to the yearly budget as well.
I agree. A lot of FIRE folks advocate for health share plans. And, again, I think in theory it’s a great idea. Will they work long term and with chronic conditions that develop after signing up? I think the jury is still out and I’m a little too “afraid” to be one of the first to try it out.
Again, you might think you’re healthy and have done everything right, but that doesn’t mean you or a loved one won’t ever have to deal with an unexpected, chronic, or debilitating condition.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
Thank you for sharing your perspective. I enjoy the FIRE community’s relentless focus on financial independence and responsibility. I have learned so much from this community and love the passion. However I do worry that some people are not considering the unexpected life events that may unfold. Like you I am older. I have experienced unforeseen personal set backs and several market corrections. After listening to Suze (she is animated) my take is that she is warning about the impact of the unknown. Her message is be financially well prepared to endure the impact of the unexpected. You cannot mitigate all risks, however you can financially ready yourself to offset the impact by having a strong capital position. Again, thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts as well. Yes, things do happen. And when you’re younger, you think you’re invincible. I know I did.
So many good thoughts in this one. I would have to say that there are more people quietly retiring early than are sharing publicly, but it seems like the most of those that I know have some additional piece of the puzzle, be it a pension or some other flexibility. And regardless, everyone pursing FIRE is better off than most everyone else – but everyone else is her audience, and she has to be careful about endorsing something people will jump to without actually being ready. Plus, serious publicity from her response, so there’s always that.
There are likely more people who retire early without announcing it. I do think there is a big push to hit that magic number and pull the trigger maybe before being fully prepared or thinking everything through.
So, there were great takeaways from the interview, despite the sometimes abrasive delivery.
Fellow Gen-Xer here (I’m turning 42 this week!) and I agree with you on all points. I used to watch Suze’s show on CNBC and it completely changed my life. No matter how over the top she is, I’ll forever be grateful for how she helped turn my finances around in my late 20s.
Being older, we’ve experienced more and have also watched our parents age (and you can speak to parenthood). I have one chronic health condition and my parents each have at least one, so it makes me question if it’s worth the risk to give up employer sponsored medical insurance prior to being eligible for Medicare.
I really wish more FIRE bloggers found the common ground between what they preach and what Suze said in the interview. Instead, most became defensive and it makes me wonder if they don’t totally believe in what they’re promoting to their readers.
Like you, I’m focused on the FI part and retirement is optional if it happens to be something I want and am able to do that that point of time in the future.
Thanks for writing a counterpoint post to what most of the bloggers had to say about that interview 🙂
Thanks for reading and for sharing your thoughts on this situation.
I hesitated to share some of the things I’ve experienced in this post, but in light of the current backlash, I felt it was appropriate and hope I might help others to at least give more consideration to their FIRE journey.
Right On! I had all the money one needed to retire by the time I was 40. I had 1 wife (who loved being a public school kindergarten teacher), 4 kids, 2 nice cars, a nice home, a lakehouse with ski boat and 2 canoes plus 1 jetski and money put away for college educations. I was a full time physician ( Ob/Gyn). It was 1980.
The very beginning of in-vitro fertilization possibilities.
Had I retired then I would have missed 25 of the most exciting years to be in medicine. I am now 77 and my practice with others in my group resulted in more than 7000 births. I retired 12 years ago and the practice is still going strong.
I feel it would have been blasphemy to not practice what I was capable of doing
That is a wonderful story! Thank you so much for sharing it and for sharing your viewpoint on this topic.
I wrote a post about a year ago questioning whether or not FIREees who have been trained in specialties were doing a disservice to the community by pulling the plug on their careers.
It’s interesting to hear you say how happy you were to stay in your field even after having reached FI. Congratulations on a successful career!
What a beautiful story! It goes to show that just because you can retire doesn’t mean you should.
I think the popularity of FIRE specifically with millennials does often have that “arrogance of youth” feel to some of the blogs in that they don’t consider how they could fund health challenges that come with age. I have two chronic conditions and a young family and will also be working until my pension/retirement health plan kicks in; however, frugality and financial independence enable a great deal of flexibility within that framework. For example, if I can hit my FI net worth number, I can take a halftime position in the same organization that accumulates retirement years/benefits in the same way as full time for increased flexibility. Even if I work until the benefit kicks in, I would be retiring at 57–quite a bit before most of my peers plan to retire. Additionally, through frugal living and a focus on the values in the FI community, we will accomplish that on a single income (mine), allowing for a full time parent while our children are young. As Mrs. Frugalwoods always says, frugality gives you options–not just FIRE.
It sounds like you have a great package at work. My employer also offers half time positions that with full-time benefits. I’m not sure if I’ll ever take advantage of it, but sure I am glad I have the option if I choose to.
This is why we lean toward FIOR as opposed to FIRE.
Thanks for your thoughtful comment and sharing your story.
Thank you for not jumping on the band wagon! Suze was right just her numbers were off. I don’t think we all need 5-20 million to retire, but life is very expensive and bad things happen and I have read many a blogs over the last 4 years of reaching for FIRE and I have seen many (arrogant) people thinking if they save 500k they will be able to live off of that for 40-70 years. Also I like that you do not fall for the retirement lingo so many bloggers throw out. “I retired and my wife still work, I now take care of my children and to things I enjoy” Society use to call this being a stay at home parent. Only until people could make money and feel important did they change it to “retirement” Thank you for actually speaking the truth.
Thank you for reading and your thoughtful comment. I just couldn’t sit by and not voice my opinion after that podcast aired last week.
After hearing the strong opinions of so many others in this community, I felt I had something intelligent to say on the other side of the fence.
Excellent points you’ve made.
People might also be confusing brains with a bull market. So many folks under the age of 35 haven’t experienced a bear market with real money invested.
There is certainly lots of comfort in having at least one spouse employed. Which is the funny reason why some bloggers, male bloggers especially, coo on about early retirement while their wives work. It’s the funniest thing!
We’re in SF, and with the rising cost of healthcare and tuition, we don’t feel comfortably with less than $5M, which is why I continuously work on FS to generate more supplemental income now that we have a boy.
Sam
Yes, it is really interesting to see people claiming to be “retired” when all they did was switch careers.
I really have a difficult time with the definition of “RE” meaning you retire from traditional work and pursue other work. Okay, but that’s not exactly being retired, now is it?
And you’re absolutely right about the bull market. A large portion of FIRE enthusiasts don’t know anything else.
The future of the movement should be interesting after the last two weeks. Thanks for stopping by and for commenting.
While I can see your point, I think Ms. Orman’s interview was fear-based and felt particularly tone-deaf to many in the FIRE community. Part of FI is analyzing what you think it will take to meet the crossover point. There will always be known unknowns (epistemic) and unknown unknowns (aleatoric). You account for them in your analysis and factor them into determining your FI number. Ms. Orman’s assessment of the FIRE community is that people aren’t doing that analysis; they’re just picking a number and jumping. Yet, one of the overarching (right or wrong) perceptions of the community is that many adherents are numbers-nerds. The tools to do your analysis and factor in your particular aleatoric and epistemic uncertainties exist. It’s just a matter of using them. I’ve done probably 100 calculations and the number comes out within about $500k variability time after time with different variables considered. That gives me scientific confidence that I’m dialing into something statistically sound not knee-jerk reacting to “Something. Might. Happen!”
Your health care approach is certainly an example of thinking through the problem. Don’t let fear keep you from living your best life. My biggest problem with the interview was that there was an implicit assumption that people are not planning when, in fact, we know they are or there wouldn’t be so many PF/FIRE blog posts! Thanks for writing your response. It’s interesting to see how this is influencing different people across the community. I don’t think anyone has said that there isn’t a kernel of truth to Ms. Orman’s words, just that she doesn’t really understand what she’s railing against. I find her sources of angst are already considered within the movement and thus her conclusions appear unsupported by analysis.
First of all, thank you so much for taking the time to read the article and for writing such a thoughtful comment.
I think Suze’s message was so ill-received because of her delivery and her grandiose examples, etc.
To me, the biggest disconnect is with the terminology. Most FIRE enthusiasts and people who have already pulled the plug on their corporate careers, aren’t retired.
Suze Orman was operating under the assumption that retire means retire. When in reality, most FIREees are still working and earning money in some form or another.
I really think it all comes down to semantics. Because, at the end of the day, we ALL agree on living below our means, earning and investing as much as possible, and living a fulfilling life.
Holy crap! When I first listened to Paula and Suze I thought Suze’s view of FIRE was nuts. But after reading this post, I’m not so sure. Thanks for making me a little more thoughtful, Mrs. MMM. My whole life has been easy. No real money woes, no real emergencies or illnesses, and no lack of health insurance. Even in retirement, at the advanced age of 57, things are still remarkably easy. Thanks to Obamacare, Mrs. Groovy and I spend $117 per month for a very solid family policy. But as you eloquently showed with your splendid prose, life isn’t always rainbows and unicorns. Upon further review, Suze may not be too far off base. Don’t play with fire in the pursuit of FIRE. Cheers.
Thanks for stopping by, Mr. Groovy! I went out on a limb by writing this post at the potential expense of losing some of my FIRE-y friends and followers.
I debated and debated whether or not I should voice my opinion. Ultimately, I decided that I couldn’t stay quiet any longer. I was lit up after hearing the podcast. But I was lit up in a good way. I found myself repeatedly saying, “yes!”, to the points that Suze was making.
I’m disappointed in the general response from the FIRE community. It almost feels like you have to pick one club or another. I sure hope they don’t revoke my FinCon 2019 pass!
It’s slated to be my 1st one. 🙂
I’m glad you didn’t stay quiet. I don’t want the FIRE movement to ever devolve into a cult, and I don’t want FIRE-enthusiasts to ever be NPCs. And thanks to people like you, the FIRE movement will remain a vibrant and thoughtful community. Cheers.
P.S. Mrs. G and I hope to make our first FinCon appearance next year as well. We really want to say hello to you and and all the other bloggers we admire.
So exciting that you’ll also be FinCon! I definitely want to make some time to meet in person. 🙂
The FIRE community is far larger than the relatively few vocal podcasters, bloggers, authors, etc. FIRE is not about changing careers but about the freedom to spend your time doing what you want instead of being required to earn a living. Many choose to work because it brings meaning to their lives, which often leads to post-FIRE income, but if you think that income is the point of FIRE, then you’re not getting it.
Certainly FI is THE MOST IMPORTANT part of FIRE. It’s a lot easier to handle whatever life throws at you when you don’t have to worry about finances.
I don’t think that most of early retirees are publicly speaking about their lives through blogs, podcasts, etc. I like to think that they really are retired and enjoying life doing whatever they choose!
I agree with much of your post. Financial Independence is the ability to step away from your job/career because you no longer need the money, but the “RE” component stands for “Retire Early.” Like you I think the acronym is inaccurate, because a lot of people in the FIRE movement seem to keep working. “RE” to them means stepping away from a corporate/unsatisfying career, which isn’t exactly “RE.”
I too am just over forty and I also found Suze Orman many decades ago. I have also had my fair share of bumps in the road. In my case surgery and a series of medical procedures I never would have predicted. I also witnessed the financial implications of my grandmother’s finances on her health and life. Long term care facilities can eat away at a significant portion of your net worth in little to no time.
I think Suze’s delivery was dreadful but I do think she made many valid points. I’m not sure why our world is so polarizing now. Some of what Suze said is correct and some of what the FIRE community believes is correct and of course each person’s life is also entirely unique. You may live to be 100 and need 10 years of care or you may jump in your care and not see a day past 20.
Everyone in the FIRE community runs the numbers, but it’s hard to account for all of the variables. I think Suze was just pointing out that some numbers may be bigger than you might be expecting.
I enjoyed Suze Orman’s podcast. I thought her delivery was dreadful, but many of her points were still valid. I think it’s difficult to balance a life you enjoy with the need to attain money and many FIRE proponents want to “retire early” so they can escape jobs they hate. Like you I have experienced a number of setbacks throughout my lifetime that I never would have imagined. All of them required amazing health insurance and money. And while my grandmother lived to be 94 I do believe more money would have helped her live longer and happier throughout her final years. I also think age is a factor in the amount of risk you are willing to take. In my 20s I would have been much more willing to walk away with a million or two. Now in my 40s with two children I am not willing to take on as much risk.